First Aid?

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Rob

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Unless you are built like an ox, and are able to carry every bit of kit known FAK's, or have a viable evacuation plan, emergency medicine in the wild is a very different animal.

So far as CPR goes, if you have no access to defib, you are pretty much in the situation of "keep going until you can go any more" and then accept the inevitable and deal with the aftermath.

As for the wilderness medical kit, compromise is a must, as you have to carry what you can to deal with what is most likely to happen - without going over the top.

I took the Advanced Medicine For Remote Foreign Travel course (run by Wilderness Medical Training) last November. There will be a review of the course on here at some point, once it filters it's way through the system. I also maintain a 1st Aid at Work qualification to keep the HSE happy. Some problems arise when it comes to what you are alowed to do in the UK, when you have a bit of extra knowledge.

I agree with Gary, the more training the better. But make sure you impart some of your knowledge to the people travelling with you, as being an unconscious first aider or expedition medic is not a lot of use to anyone.

I havent been brave enough to let Mel learn stuff with needles on me yet, as I would have to do it without the anaesthetic. :yikes:
 

Paganwolf

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 26, 2004
2,330
2
53
Essex, Uk
www.WoodlifeTrails.com
Well done bushmaster heroic stuff there matie, in an emergency situation it may just be a little knowledge the ability to stay cool and not to panic thats needed to save a comrades or a strangers life, anyone who has never done a course or read a book on first aid i would suggest they do as you may one day need those skills to save a loved ones life, Having the chat about guardian angels this weekend with Gary and Geoff got me thinking in the way that all the guys and gals that frequent this site have such a wealth of knowledge and are so helpful in your answers to the new comers to the BCUK forum you should all be proud in the knowledge that if a survival or accident related incident did happen you would all be there in the front line bow drill sets and first aid kits at the ready :wink: :biggthump
 

TheViking

Native
Jun 3, 2004
1,864
4
35
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I guess we all have been in situations where 1. aid was needed. I guess minor damage is first aid too. It's not very often my mom or dad has given me a bandage on. Most times they drove to the hospital or called the emergency central. :roll: The reason is because most times have been burns and cut wounds. But in small occasions of accidents there's no need for someone, obviously. :p
 

leon-1

Full Member
Bushmaster said:
Thanks Ripley,I do agree that training is the key to confidence.I personally feel that first aid should be taught in schools as part of the national curriculum. That way we have a country of "doers not viewers" as you get at most incidents.You know the stand and stare mob!!

Geoff

Yep, first aid training at school would be good, but as with all things in this day and age practiceing first aid on a casualty has its complications. We are in the age of law suites where it is possible to save someones life, but should you make the slightest mistake, even though you have just saved a life, you may be sued for it.

A lot of stand and stare is morbid curiosity. Then you have an amount that don't want to get involved for one reason or another.

In the military, as trained member of the medical services or as a first aider at work, you will find that you are normally covered by insurance and a lot of it.

Having first aid training at school would not give you that insurance, so would we be better of because people are trained first aiders, but have no insurance and thus will not carry out first aid for fear of being sued in the event of anything going wrong, whether they are truly liable or not. :?:
 

ripley

Member
Sep 2, 2004
19
0
Switzerland
leon-1 said:
Yep, first aid training at school would be good, but as with all things in this day and age practiceing first aid on a casualty has its complications. We are in the age of law suites where it is possible to save someones life, but should you make the slightest mistake, even though you have just saved a life, you may be sued for it.

In most European countries (like here in Switzerland) you cannot be sued if you would make a mistake trying to save someones life. It's more the opposite: you can get sued by the law if you don't aid a person in need. The law here is very clear for that matter. You "must" call professional help and you are urged by law to do more if you can. If you would then do something wrong that would lead to the death of the victim, the state would have to prove that you had serious intension to bring harm to the victim before they could sue you. (as long as you are not a professional yourself , but in that case you would have an insurance that would protect you for professional mistakes anyway).
Me being a first aid worker, I could get sued for not giving personal assistance to the victim, but I could never get sued for mistakes as I'm not a professional. (We are bound to medical secrecy and other professional laws, but we are not regarded as "professional" by law).
 

tenbears10

Native
Oct 31, 2003
1,220
0
xxxx
Unfortunately Ripley here in the UK we seem to have taken the worst parts of the litigation culture so as Leon says it is a real possibility that if your help kept someone alive but caused them to become paralysed there is a very real chance you could face prosecution for the damage caused.

The example often used in first aid training is a motorcycle crash victim and the dilemma of removing their helmet to give mouth to mouth. To remove the helmet will possibly paralyse them but not removing it will kill them. You can only save them and hope most judges will see that you had the best intentions. I would much prefer your system however.


Bill
 

Paganwolf

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 26, 2004
2,330
2
53
Essex, Uk
www.WoodlifeTrails.com
tomtom said:
i did the basics of first aid in school and things changed even in the few times i did that..

what courses would you guys recoment?

I would recomend the one i did last weekend with Natural Pathways,it was £160 You get the first aid course a weekend in the woods and all your food and brew too, fantastic deal IMO :biggthump
 

tomtom

Full Member
Dec 9, 2003
4,283
5
38
Sunny South Devon
excelent.. my school first aid consisted largly of spending a few hours taking the **** out of the school nurses then trying to see if we could pop that dummy with no arms and no legs..
Thanks PW!
 

Squidders

Full Member
Aug 3, 2004
3,853
15
48
Harrow, Middlesex
I have minimal formal training but have found that telling people it's just a flesh wound and to stop moaning about it works a treat.

Most first aid usually only works for exceptionally basic or industrial accidents though. Unless specifically taught, I don't think many first-aiders would have a clue how to treat a tropical ulcer or diagnose the onset of malaria.
 

Andy

Native
Dec 31, 2003
1,867
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38
sheffield
www.freewebs.com
What the thing with cpr and two people at the moment?

It did used to get all funny (St Johns kept it the same for public in FAW). It's realy practices in teams I find.

I guess I should just send him an email but he doesn't get back to me.
 

Martyn

Bushcrafter through and through
Aug 7, 2003
5,252
33
58
staffordshire
www.britishblades.com
Andy said:
What the thing with cpr and two people at the moment?

No different, 15:2 whether you are on your own or with a buddy. The most recent change (although it only really applies to advanced life support) is continous, uninterupted compressions if you can secure the airway with an ET tube. This used to be 15:2 as well, but now you just go for 12 bagged breaths a minute with uninterupted compressions.
 

Martyn

Bushcrafter through and through
Aug 7, 2003
5,252
33
58
staffordshire
www.britishblades.com
Ginja said:
That said, I know a couple of mountain rescue people (based in The Peaks) who agree that successful CPR is virtually impossible 'off the beaten track' - it's never once been successful for either of my friends, put it that way.

Successful CPR depends on a number of things, but probably most significant, is why the person arrested in the first place. If they had an EMD arrest (PEA for the old timers) with correctable causes and thier downtime is minimal, you stand a half decent chance of getting an output, but if they infarcted, your chances are much slimmer. I've forgotten how many (in-hospital) arrests I've been involved in, but it's more than a few, I've led probably half of those and outcomes are generally poor unless there is a clear and correctable cause. The problem with resus in the field, is you have very limited means of identifying cause. You can treat hypoxia effectively, but I doubt many arrests are caused by hypoxia alone. Hypothermia is another which actually has good outcomes, with a good long term prognosis. But most of the other causes are much harder (or impossible) to identify in the field, with limited or no equipment. If you have IV siting skills and have the eqipment, you could treat hypovolaemia, but that's pushing reality. As others have mentioned, the awkwardness of in the field resus, also compounds it's effectiveness. The longest I've done is 40 minutes, taking turns with 1 other bloke. We failed to get an output and the team called it. But after 40 minutes of "ideal situation" CPR, I was utterly b***ered! I felt like I'd don 5 hours in the gym and could feel the ache in my shoulders for days afterwards - and my technique is practiced and pretty good. If you're trying to do CPR on your own, in less than ideal circumstances, I'd bet you'd give up long before then - I know I would.

However, those people that come into hospital, that have had effective bystander CPR with minimal downtime, stand a massively improved chance of survival. Sometimes you question whether it's all worth it, when outcomes are generally so poor - it can get depressing, but you only have to see the face of one little girl, after you've given her dad back to her, to make it all worthwhile.
 

ripley

Member
Sep 2, 2004
19
0
Switzerland
Martyn said:
However, those people that come into hospital, that have had effective bystander CPR with minimal downtime, stand a massively improved chance of survival. Sometimes you question whether it's all worth it, when outcomes are generally so poor - it can get depressing, but you only have to see the face of one little girl, after you've given her dad back to her, to make it all worthwhile.

I guess that's what it's all about... :)
 

beach bum

On a new journey
Jul 15, 2004
120
0
cardiff
There is an initiative sponsored by The British Heart Foundation called HEARTSTART HEARTSTART their aim is to get more people able to perform CPR to a standard that makes a difference. Anyone interested should contact them, they are only too pleased to lay on all the teaching aids (high tech too) needed.

They are especially interested in ready formed groups.

Do it, you could be the one that makes a difference.

regards

beach bum
 

Andy

Native
Dec 31, 2003
1,867
11
38
sheffield
www.freewebs.com
Martyn said:
No different, 15:2 whether you are on your own or with a buddy. The most recent change (although it only really applies to advanced life support) is continous, uninterupted compressions if you can secure the airway with an ET tube. This used to be 15:2 as well, but now you just go for 12 bagged breaths a minute with uninterupted compressions.

I'm up to date then. I was meant to be doing the advanced stuff but the group eemed to fell apart. They were hoping to get most people to do defib medical gasses etc. Closest I got was carrying the kit round
 

Gary

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 17, 2003
2,603
2
57
from Essex
On the refresher course I just attended the instructor gave us all a pocket manual and flicking through its pages this made me think how important something like that is to the wilderness traveller because knowledge of first aid is fine but we can't remember everything, a good manual will cover many 'unusual' events and in this ones case also covers the common over the count drugs and there uses as well as first aid kits ect ect.

Also as a little bonus all profits from it go to help support the porters and their families in Nepal.

As always carry a small aid memoir with your kit on extended trips!
 

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