Bushcraft first aid training

[nigeltm]

There are numerous threads about first aid. What kit to use in a situation. Are you allowed to give treatment/medication. Etc. For those of us who haven't had a career where first aid training/experience is included this is a bit of a minefield.

Can anyone recommend a training course in south Wales that would cover the basics and the ethical/legal issues but geared to the outdoors? Even better, if the training incorporates natural resources.

I'm looking for something for myself and my 11 and 13 year old sprogs. All help appreciated.

Ta,

Nigel

 

[crazydave]

trouble now is its so pc that you often cant treat as required incase someone gets the hump. first aid at work is now a useless qualification.

st johns/red cross I think still do public first aid courses on an evening for around 7 weeks or so which covers usefull basic old fashioned first aid.

collins gem do a pocket first aid manual as well.

 

[Kerne]

Don't know about S. Wales, but if you can get up to N. Wales, Plas y Brenin runs REC (Rescue and Emergency Care) two-day courses that are specifically geared to outdoor situations - much more realistic than the First Aid at Work certificate but covers the same basic stuff and adds how to improvise care in the outdoors and caring for the injured party over a longer period (the ambulance isn't necessarily on its way!)

Not cheap. But Good.

 

[Kerne]

As for litigation:

I am not at all sure about this (if you are lawyer, an opinion would be appreciated) but I thought that we have a stronger legal position if we do something rather than if we let someone bleed/suffocate/drown/whatever for fear of being sued. Morally, of course, I certainly couldn't stand about watching someone suffer (Lawyers will, of course, be unable to offer any opinions on morality )

Isn't there (or shouldn't there be) some sort of "duty of care" to those around us - or am I just an old hippy, sadly out of his time. (I'm listening to Crosby Stills and Nash as I type this )

 

[ganstey]

As for litigation:

I am not at all sure about this (if you are lawyer, an opinion would be appreciated) but I thought that we have a stronger legal position if we do something rather than if we let someone bleed/suffocate/drown/whatever for fear of being sued. Morally, of course, I certainly couldn't stand about watching someone suffer (Lawyers will, of course, be unable to offer any opinions on morality )

Isn't there (or shouldn't there be) some sort of "duty of care" to those around us - or am I just an old hippy, sadly out of his time. (I'm listening to Crosby Stills and Nash as I type this )

This issue was raised when I did my FA@W course with St Johns a few years ago. The answer given was "Go on your instincts". The instructor also said that he'd never heard of anyone being prosecuted because they'd tried to help someone, but you need to use common sense. If you feel you're making things worse, or you feel out of your depth, then the best thing you can do is make sure more qualified help arrives as soon as possible. He also said that he had never heard of anyone being prosecuted for not doing something

G

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

BASP - British Assoc.of Ski Patrollers -do good 2 day coures, Emergency First Aid in the Outdoors, they do Uk and Euro courses. I have done two in the past and I'm doing one next week.

www.basp.org.uk

Nick

 

[squantrill]

Nigel, check out the local canoe club and ask to do a first aide course there, all canoe kayak instructors have to do a first aide course every three years, they should be able to help you out.

The aquatic first aide is not the one you want though as you do lots of stuff on the water and thats not really bushcraft.. I did mine one year it was a full three day outdoors first id course that was really good it was also at a kayak centre..

 

[crazydave]

litigation - you cant be sued for doing nothing. infact it would probably wake the pc brigade up if more people admitted to knowing what to do but not bothering for legal reasons. there was the case of the community support officers who watched a kid drown because they said they werent trained in such situations.

the only issue I'm aware of is that if you start cpr then technically you are not allowed to stop unless a doctor says so.

the best buy out is 'I am not a doctor, do you still wish me to go ahead?' another is dont give pills make them ask and pay for them. that way you are not prescribing.

to show how daft it gets a fellow medic stopped on the autobahn to help at an rta, without thinking he stuck his hand up a girls skirt to pinch off a femoral bleed out and saved her life in the process. three months later he was done for indecent assault

the whole wasting time in casualty gets me wound up. as a kid I'd fall off the swings onto the concrete and smack my head, go home complaining of a headache, get given and aspirin and I'd go to bed. now a child bumps into a door at school, goes to hospital in an ambulance, gets a scan and is monitored every hour overnight while the school has to go through its risk assessments and notify its insurance company of a possible claim. sorry rant over

 

[Neanderthal]

Or the rescuer is exhausted.

Stu

 

[Kerne]

the school has to go through its risk assessments and notify its insurance company of a possible claim

Don't get me started on risk assessments at school. Many of my colleagues will no longer take students out on activity trips due to the enormous workload involved in preparing risk assessments for the most ludicrous things - like crossing a busy road.

 

[Sniper]

Both St John's and Red Cross run courses to various levels where you are and it is possible to get a course tailored to your requirements ie outdoor injuries, however there would have to be more than just one applicant. Give your local Red Cross a call and see what they can offer, a full standard first aid certificate is generally around the £60 mark and that is the highest level there is, in fact it is the same course as their own volunteers do for covering large events for the public. Another way is, dependant on your circumstances and community spirit, you could join as a volunteer in which case all training is free, and you can go on to take more advanced skills training such as administering oxygen therapy, moving and handling casualties, trauma management and a host of other skills. Courses for the public are either over a period of 14 weeks at one night a week for 2 hours, or, many are now done over 2 weekends Sat/Sun and almost all now are done using live casualties made up with simulated wounds which are very realistic. These courses are not to be confused with a First Aid at Work certificate which employers must by law provide a certain quantity of their workforce to deal with injuries only in the workplace costing around £280 per person and is of a lesser standard to the one I have mentioned earlier.
As regards lotions, potions, and pills this is a real quagmire legally. A layman can be prosecuted for administering any of these without adequate professionally recognised training, even then a set of questions must be asked/answered before you can even give paracetamol. You are not even allowed to provide sun cream, in case someone has an allergic reaction which would then open you up to procecution. No win No fee lawyers have brought about this sad state of affairs where everyone these days are too frightened to lend a hand in case of litigation. I for one could not stand by and watch someone injured, I feel it is my moral duty to step forward and help and to hang with the consequencies, but hopefully I am well enough trained and practiced enough with many years experience under my belt that I would not do anything wrong.

 

[He' s left the building]

Last time I stopped at a traffic accident the bloke I was giving CPR died, not one person even mentioned litigation from all present at the scene: police, paramedic, family of the deceased, by-standers.

Do not be afraid of litigation in an emergency situation, the so-called horror stories are all media hype.

Do a St Johns course or your employers HSE-approved training provider if you're working. For expeds in remote areas do one of the remote medical courses available.

 

[rik_uk3]

Common sense should rule your actions. CPR to be honest fails a lot more times than it succeeds, certainly away from a 'high tec' ward/hospital environment and as someone who has carried out CPR on many occasions I can confirm that its very hard work.

If you start try and keep going as long as possible until the professionals arrive, stop when you have, as someone else said, you can get exhausted carrying out the procedure.

Don't give any medication to anyone you don't really know well, its not a safe practise, I'll only give an over the counter analgesic for instance, to family or friends I do know well and am 100% confident they have used that type in the past without adverse reaction, friends have to ask first, family I've no problem giving to as I'll know their history and any possible conflicts involved with existing medication.

Do the courses, and I can't emphasise the importance of practising your skills after training, it can be fun bandaging the wife from time to time Its OK training and reading a book or three and thinking you are fine, you are not, when T**** its a whole new world, there will be some panic, some anxiety, some confusion, and all on your level,; be very careful on the procedures you carry out plus make sure they are safe
procedures and you are capable of them

If your interested in legal aspects its worth looking into 'Duty of care under common law'

 

[Nagual]

...snip..

to show how daft it gets a fellow medic stopped on the autobahn to help at an rta, without thinking he stuck his hand up a girls skirt to pinch off a femoral bleed out and saved her life in the process. three months later he was done for indecent assault

...snip...

I got told that one too when I was in Germany, back in '89. I have a feeling it may be a good old Army Urban Myth, but then again maybe not. If I remember right there was a change to German law which essentially, shall we say, encouraged people to help someone rather than not due to various stories of being sued. Of course that too my be a load of dog poo too.


I always feel that if you can do something and no one else is doing anything, act. Better to try to help than to watch someone suffer, I think.


Nag.

 

[nigeltm]

Guys thanks for all your advice.

Unfortunately as a contractor my employer is not going to pay for any training. So I think a call to the St. Johns and a canoe club are called for.

Thanks again.

 

[nigeltm]

Well I just checked out the St. Johns website. They offer some cracking courses, as long as you live in England! I'd love to do the Activity and Motorcycle courses, but would need to travel over 2 hours just to get to a training centre. Not ideal

I've fired off a query to find out if there are plans to offer more local training. I'll post up their reply in case it would be of interest to any other taffies hanging around sunny souh Wales

 

[rik_uk3]

Well I just checked out the St. Johns website. They offer some cracking courses, as long as you live in England! I'd love to do the Activity and Motorcycle courses, but would need to travel over 2 hours just to get to a training centre. Not ideal

I've fired off a query to find out if there are plans to offer more local training. I'll post up their reply in case it would be of interest to any other taffies hanging around sunny souh Wales

We have a St John's in Aberdare, plenty of others I think in South Wales too

 

[ScarletPimpernel]

I got told that one too when I was in Germany, back in '89. I have a feeling it may be a good old Army Urban Myth, but then again maybe not.

Reminiscent of the busload of nurses from BMH Rinteln that was apparently coming to the NAAFI disco....

If I remember right there was a change to German law which essentially, shall we say, encouraged people to help someone rather than not due to various stories of being sued. Of course that too my be a load of dog poo too.

In Germany it's an offence not to stop and help at a RTA. A first aid kit has to be carried in every car; if you have to use it, the Polizei at the scene will give you a chit to replace it. During my various tours sausage-side I've stopped at several accidents and given first aid, with no suggestion of any disapprobation from the authorities. The last time was earlier this year, when I saw a moped rider hit by a car. The rider was taken to the hospital I was working at, so I was able to visit her the next day; no suggestion of a law suit!

 

[crazydave]

I got told that one too when I was in Germany, back in '89. I have a feeling it may be a good old Army Urban Myth, but then again maybe not. If I remember right there was a change to German law which essentially, shall we say, encouraged people to help someone rather than not due to various stories of being sued. Of course that too my be a load of dog poo too.


I always feel that if you can do something and no one else is doing anything, act. Better to try to help than to watch someone suffer, I think.


Nag.

same time as me then, I was in paderborn at the time handing out condoms and chasing the infamous monica round the accomodation chart. it created quite a stir as the army hadnt long revoked crown immunity causing a lot of medics in the uk to do a basic st johns course for the free insurance. Our MO told us and gave us some tips to avoid trouble. the guys on aarse probably know who it was.

 

[Minotaur]

Are you allowed to give treatment/medication. Etc.

Yes to treatment, but medication is a really big issue. I would be amazed if you can find a course that does prescribing under experdition level. Ever then it is a big legal issue.

For those of us who haven't had a career where first aid training/experience is included this is a bit of a minefield.

The more you know the worse it gets.

Can anyone recommend a training course in south Wales that would cover the basics and the ethical/legal issues but geared to the outdoors? Even better, if the training incorporates natural resources.

I'm looking for something for myself and my 11 and 13 year old sprogs. All help appreciated.

Ta,

Nigel

Around Brecan there used to be a company called Bigfoot, that ran an Outdoor First Aid at work course.

Best bet find your local Mountain Rescue they will use someone.

The Outdoor courses are different, because the normal course is based around an 8 minute ambulance, the outdoor course is based around at least a 30 minute wait.

As far as I know none of the major organisations run an outdoor course, the closest they go is what is called the Oil Rig course.

Your best bet for the Kids would be a scout group, or St John(Red Cross as far as I know do not have a youth division anymore, but that could be area related).