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Bad bad things are going on in Norway these days. Please spread the word.

Discussion in 'Bushcraft Chatter' started by Skaukraft, Jun 27, 2019.

  1. Skaukraft

    Skaukraft Settler

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    Bad bad things are gong on in Norway at the moment. Large European Power comapnies (mainly german) are destroying untouched nature and endangered wildlife in order to build huge windmill parks. Sea eagles are killed by the hundreds.
    Please spread the word all over Europe. If this is not stopped, huge areas of untouched wildlife with eagles, reindeer, wolf, lynx and bear will be destroyed for ever. Norwegian politicians have made deals behind peoples back and people are starting to get desperate. Homes and whole comunities are destroyed.

    SPREAD THE WORD!!!
    Please sign! And/or let your voice be heard. Spread the information. German sivilians are also starting to shout against this. They dont want power based on destroyed untouched nature.
    https://secure.avaaz.org/en/communi...rgsDdloe0AVp-6aaeOq9-_pSwddnqxrphc-ojHiC2kvXk
     
  2. Skaukraft

    Skaukraft Settler

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    There are some groups on Facebook posting a lot of pictures and facts around this. Go into the group "La Naturen Leve" and see. There you will also find links to various groups covering the different areas.
     
  3. crosslandkelly

    crosslandkelly A somewhat settled

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  4. Toddy

    Toddy Mod
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    Why are the sea eagles being hurt ? Are there not huge pre-installation researches done ?

    I know that the Norwegians themselves are doing research, and the results seem to indicate that the population is actually steady.

    http://sciencenordic.com/five-kilometres-between-life-and-death-sea-eagle

    I think this is always going to be a contentious topic, I know that not everyone (ahem! Trump) likes the windfarms on their 'doorstep' so to speak. I know too that wilderness is only really wilderness to the people who don't live there......and I know that with the best of intentions harnessing natural energy is still very much a work in progress.

    M
     
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  5. Billy-o

    Billy-o Settler

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    Wind power is good ... what do you want? Norway to go to nuclear power, or coal?

    Eyesores are one thing and slight as irritations ... and you can quickly get yourself an aesthetic reeducation in industrial architecture. As it happens, I very much like the sleek look of wind turbines .. (but, on the other hand I also like the look of oil rigs, dams and electricity pylons :lol:).

    Shilling for oil companies is not good, however and, personally, I don't much like seeing such lobbying on a site like this that aims for good eco-ethics.

    The other side of wind-power (and the other non-oil energy sources) is endlessly metastasizing, toxic pollution which has already destabilized our climate.
     
    #5 Billy-o, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2019
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  6. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    This is very difficult for me.
    On one hand, I would not like to see a 'wind farm' where my place is in Lofoten. We have 3 nesting Eagle pairs within watching distance from my bedroom window, .But, then I would not like to see Norway building coal powered generators either.
    Hydro is fantastic, but it has made the wild Salmon very scares in both Norway and Sweden ( virtually all water ways are used).

    One argument could be we need to save electric energy. But more and more is used, and much more will be needed if Electric cars become the norm in the future, so that is impossible.....


    I think Norway buys more and more electricity from abroad. Not much, around 2%, but steadily growing?

    Maybe people not wishing to have these machines around the countryside should start approaching the government and demand they build Nuclear power stations?

    I personally am very confused. Whatever we do, turns bad, in one way or another.
    Is there not a saying in English - 'Damned if we do, damned if we don't ' ?
     
    #6 Janne, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  7. Tengu

    Tengu Full Member

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    My initial reaction to this was that a renewable energy company damaging the environment seems a really bad business model.

    It still is. I didnt want to reply immediatley as I dont like stirring the pot.

    If we wated more Sea Eagles we should leave out things for them to eat, like they do in Ostenvanplassen (Dutch folk please forgive my spelling)

    But I cannot see people putting dead cows on bird tables in this country....
     
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  8. Fadcode

    Fadcode Full Member

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    The problem here is that they are sited in the countryside, now the electricity they produce does not benefit the countryside/wilderness, so why don't they site these things in the towns, on top of skyscrapers etc, they are a bit like immigrants everyone wants them, but not in their homes.
    Living in Cornwall its amazing how many of these there are, more surprising is the plaques stating "Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty" when the skyline is cluttered with these things,
     
  9. Billy-o

    Billy-o Settler

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    But you still use electricity right. I mean, the internet just gobbles the stuff up with all those servers and search engines and Twitterfeeds

    Its a position people like to take, but it doesn't hold a lot of water. Sometimes people are from the UK .. like when fighting wars, or agreeing national education policy ... and sometimes they are from Cornwall ... like when deciding which roads to redevelop around Looe.

    Roads are interesting. It's not like the cost of all the roads in Cornwall, or anything like the cost of all the roads in Cornwall is covered by Cornish tax pounds. The money for that comes from big cities. Electricity is a bit like that, I think.
     
  10. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    I hope this thread continues in a friendly mode. I find this whole question very interesting and well worth debating.
     
  11. Tengu

    Tengu Full Member

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    I was banished to Cornwall, and yes, there are many places where you look around, you can see 20+ windturbines.

    AONB Land,of course. (Mostly ex industrial...)
     
  12. Billy-o

    Billy-o Settler

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    A drive through Michigan, Illinois, Indiana is informative. When you see how many many turbines there are out there in that prairie land ... lots in California too

    The reason that the coal, shale and oil lobby is so sneakily and deceitfully animated at the moment is because, right now, it looks like they are losing to wind ... and Trump stands up for oil ... a situation which, in whatever roundabout way, is where I suspect the material of the OP eventually derives from

    If a modern state like Norway goes predominantly to wind .. people will notice :) Best smear its rep quick, right? :lol:
     
    #12 Billy-o, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
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  13. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    No, Norway is 98 % Hydroelectric.
    The last is wind, plus they buy from other countries, so produced by Nuclear, Coal, plus the 'renewable' sources.

    They can not go predominantly wind. They need to much electricity for that.
    Hydro is excellent, but it 'costs' salmon, and the rivers get buggered up, ( pardon my French!).

    Every dam above the plant has created barriers that can not be crossed by wildlife safely, not even in winter.
     
  14. Woody girl

    Woody girl Full Member

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    Many years ago when they started to put up the pylons for the national grid people were up in arms. Now we hardly notice them. Though I find them annoying in my views when I'm in the countryside I think we have accepted them as a nessasary evil.
    Hopefully we can learn to accept these wind turbines and solar fields.
    Having spent a lot of years camping near Delabole and it is always an exciting moment to see them on the horizon. I just dont get the same buzz from a nuclear power station, no matter what I tell myself.
    I agree that they should be nearer to civilisation and not in these wild areas. Until we stop being nimbys this is gonna happen as the power generation companies cannot keep fighting the locals spending millions of dollars doing so. It becomes uneconomic.
    We need to embrace them more but more care does need to be taken when siting them in the more rural areas.
    I know buildings can create wind tunnels. Why not make use of that scenario in cities? All new build houses should have solar roofs and feed into the grid. There are many ways to generate power putting solar panels on every roof in the country would generate gallons of electricity and possibly cheaper than the new hinkly point . Which is the most expensive power we have ever had.. £90 per kw! When it comes online. We were sold it on the promise of cheaper electric. My opinion is unprintable!
     
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  15. Billy-o

    Billy-o Settler

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    FYI : Canada is having a fine old time rolling around in its energy quandaries.

    No one (except Albertans, for understandable reasons) much like big oil and there have been several struggles over new pipelines to get landlocked Alberta oil out to tidal water so as they (not sure who that is, exactly) can ship it cheap and unrefined to China mainly .. (at a benefit to whom exactly, being the chief question). This took a recent new turn when the Federal government (in an act of equally profound electoral cravenness and self-destruction) finally decided to back the pipeline that has been long planned to go through BC. And we have yet to see what will come of that argument. Some are predicting the end of Canada as a federation of provinces as a result. More likely just going to mark the end of Justin Trudeau's government :lol:

    At the same time, people like Hydro, but not the kind of Hydro that involves the flooding of thousands of acres of farmland, such as with the recently-defeated Site C dam project in BC.
     
  16. demographic

    demographic Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)

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    When the other options for getting energy seem far worse environmentally I'll not be signing that. Sorry.

    As for the person asking why not site windmills on towerblocks, thats because the residents wouldn't appreciate the low frequency vibrations as it spins.
    Plus if one falls over in a field it's not very likely to kill a hundred people is it.
     
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  17. Tengu

    Tengu Full Member

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    In Cornwall we have this completley un new thing called Hot Rocks.
     
  18. Woody girl

    Woody girl Full Member

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    I was just throwing out an idea. I'm sure that technology could solve the noise or vibration issues.. rubber mountings for instance. Plus I wasn't advocating huge turbines in populated cities. They could be on top of high rise buildings. And therefore much smaller and less susceptible to falling over in high winds. It's fairly typical of people to see the negatives first and say can't be done because. .. blah blah.
    One way to get round problems is to look at the end result you desire and then work backwards to the solution. It realy does work. Also how many deaths due to coal mining accidents compared to turbines collapsing? Google it and find out!
     
    #18 Woody girl, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
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  19. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    Woody Girl, you tell Harley Davison to solve the vibration problem. If they can, yes, then everything can be solved!
    :)

    It has been suggested that a hugely positive impact would be to place electricity generating stuff in the unpopulated Sahara.
    Several ways to use the powerful sun exist. Plus those countries would get basically free energy, and lots of jobs.
    But it falls on two points. Unstable governments in that area and the worldwide problem with our governments total inability to cooperate.

    Also a hydro electric plant, and filling up the huge depression in the Sahara with sea water. That would improve the climate hugely, and somewhat lessen the increasing sea water levels...

    Again, the local political climate is unstable, and all of us are unable to cooperate for more than one sentence and the time it takes to sign a piece of (worthless) paper.
     
    #19 Janne, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
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  20. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    Do not forget that one way is to lessen the need for electricity.
    One major use is warming up our homes, or in my case where I mainly live, cooling it.
    https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrJ61yfCRVdnpwA9xRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1561688607/RO=10/RU=https://www.thegreenage.co.uk/what-can-other-countries-teach-us-about-insulation//RK=2/RS=mNwQdeOiy3k_gXLnb1_RVsgMBjM-


    Maybe, if the insulation standards are improved ( even in Norway) we do not need to build that many new power generating plants/windmills/whatever.
     
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