Ashdown forest fires today

[MrEd]

How does gorse wood look like?

older ones the main trunk and branches are usually quite twisted and gnarly, imagine like an old vine or similar - that kind of twisted look. Younger ones are fairly straight slim branches that are covered in spikes,

Never done anything with the wood though, so cant comment on workability etc

 

[Janne]

So old, thick ones should have a nice colouration and grain maybe?

I have never even tried trying to get a nice thick piece. Sticky!

A magnitude worse than Juniper.

 

[MrEd]

So old, thick ones should have a nice colouration and grain maybe?

I have never even tried trying to get a nice thick piece. Sticky!

A magnitude worse than Juniper.

No idea, I will see if I can go out and get a bit and take some photos, there is loads on the heathland near work, acres and acres of the stuff

 

[Darryl of Sussex]

No idea, I will see if I can go out and get a bit and take some photos, there is loads on the heathland near work, acres and acres of the stuff

Not the Gorse... follow the rake!

“In my thoughts I have seen rings of smoke through the trees”

 

[Janne]

I guess most of you are from outside large cities?
Many city folks have some weird ideas about nature and the ways of the country side.

Many of the boys I helped train during my few Army days were from Stockholm or Gothenburg.
First we had to teach them how to walk in nature, so they did not fall or poke out an eye. The second step was usually how to go for a no 2, sounds in the night and so on.

Raking the forest floor - would not surprise me to hear.

We laugh, but many city folks just do not know. Not theur fault.

 

[santaman2000]

One thing to bear in mind is that unlike the large pine and birch forests in Scandinavia and Canada, the forests in the UK (certainly England and Wales) are typically made up of broadleaved trees with life cycles of centuries rather than decades and those cycles have been interrupted by the hand of man over millennia - otherwise IIRC the whole country would revert to woodland.

Ummmm. The species of conifers in North American apex forests (including most of the pines) have lifespans of millennia: not dcad s or even centuries.

 

[Robson Valley]

In the Boreal Forest, pines occupy an intermediate seral stage, not the climax community.
They are replaced from an understory of shade tolerant species such as Picea glauca. and P. englemanii. (spruce)
I suppose undisturbed in some ecosystems, some pines will live a long time (7,000+ years) like Pinus aristata or P. longaeva.
However,
If you dig enough soil pits and look at enough charcoal layers, you learn that disturbance is normal.
Wildfire is normal and pines have endured this for so many eons
that serotinous pine cones cannot open without the heat of a wild fire for natural regeneration.
Time scale? 70-100 years.
It's commonplace to replant short-rotation fiber crop species such as pine on some sites and spruce on other more suitable sites.

 

[santaman2000]

In the Boreal Forest, pines occupy an intermediate seral stage, not the climax community.
They are replaced from an understory of shade tolerant species such as Picea glauca. and P. englemanii. (spruce)
I suppose undisturbed in some ecosystems, some pines will live a long time (7,000+ years) like Pinus aristata or P. longaeva.
However,
If you dig enough soil pits and look at enough charcoal layers, you learn that disturbance is normal.
Wildfire is normal and pines have endured this for so many eons
that serotinous pine cones cannot open without the heat of a wild fire for natural regeneration.
Time scale? 70-100 years.
It's commonplace to replant short-rotation fiber crop species such as pine on some sites and spruce on other more suitable sites.

I was thinking farther south than Boreal. Long Leaf Southern Yellow Pine (no idea what the taxonomy is) has a lifespan of about 2 centuries (give or take a half century) Bristlecone Pine out west lives for millennia (the Methusala Tree is the best known example) Then the Redwoods and Sequoias (conifers but not pines) None of them are Boreal to my knowledge.

Conifers and softwoods make up over half of the world’s oldest trees https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/w.../the-worlds-10-oldest-living-trees/methuselah

 

[Robson Valley]

Yup Bristlecone is Pinus aristata or P. longaeva, depending on the published age of the reference book.
P. aristata might be the name in vogue in this day and time. We had a small grove of specimens doing very well at 54N in BC.

From arms length, I'll guess that the great oak forests of medieval Britain represented the climax seral stage in forests.
Given modern consumptive and non-consumptive resource demands, is there any appetite for that "paleo" or "Neolithic" originality?

Here' it's just too much damn work to try to turn the Taiga into something it isn't.

 

[Nomad64]

Ummmm. The species of conifers in North American apex forests (including most of the pines) have lifespans of millennia: not dcad s or even centuries.

Very true but my comment was in response to RV’s suggestion that the commercial cycle of softwood forests in Canada was around 60 years, Oaks etc in the UK are only starting to get going by that stage. Many, if not most of the broadleaved woodlands in the UK would have been actively managed for centuries with some species of broadleaved trees effectively achieving immortality through being coppiced every generation or so.

http://smallwoods.org.uk/our-work/woodland-products/a-brief-history-of-coppicing/

FWIW, there is a tree not on your list even older than the Llangernyw yew. The one in St Cynog’s churchyard in Defynnog not far from where I live, apparently predates Christianity by over 3000 years. The church is built on a stone age burial site - early Christians in the UK were quite good at appropriating pagan sites and symbolism.

https://www.newhistorian.com/age-of-ancient-welsh-yew-tree-discovered/540/

 

[chas brookes]

May I ask your opinion of holding (more) controlled burns in Ashdown Forest? To me it seems to be the most reasonable way to protect the Forest from uncontrolled damage but I can only guess at the methods of preventing spread and agreeing responsibility of controlling it.

I once saw the effects of a controlled burn in Australia. The Tree Fern ‘blackboys’ (so named after their appearance after being burned) had rejuvenated (someone told me they needed fire in order to release their seed), as had much of the other flora and fauna.

Hi Darryl they tend to only do their burns in February as this is when the ground underfoot would normally be wet, with new growth just starting to show. It is also the time when the least amount of wildlife is likely to be affected as only the top dryer stuff is effected as the dampness protects the ground below. What did not help this year was the record temperatures the ground would have been a lot dryer than normal. Ashdown Forest are really good and maintain a lot of really decent fire breaks which assist a lot when firefighting. They also have machinery they use for cutting the bracken and gorse at other times and also the volunteers who pull up a lot of the tree seedlings which helps maintain the heathland.
The first two pictures show a fire on Ashdown 5th June 3013 which covered a large area

the next pictures show the same location taken on the 13th June just over a week later showing regrowth already

 

[Nice65]

Edited, Gorse, not horse.

 

[Woody girl]

Edited, Gorse, not horse.

I've spent ages trying to figure out horse logs!!!!!!

 

[santaman2000]

Very true but my comFWIW, there is a tree not on your list even older than the Llangernyw yew. The one in St Cynog’s churchyard in Defynnog not far from where I live, apparently predates Christianity by over 3000 years. The church is built on a stone age burial site

Actually the Llangeryw Yew is the third tree on that list. It appears to be third oldest. (Although they’re not exactly listed in order f age) at about 4000 years old while both of te preceding trees re a bit older than that.

 

[Nice65]

I've spent ages trying to figure out horse logs!!!!!!

Bloody spellchecker! I’ve just noticed it “corrected” car to cater too. That post must have made no sense whatsoever

 

[Nomad64]

Actually the Llangeryw Yew is the third tree on that list. It appears to be third oldest. (Although they’re not exactly listed in order f age) at about 4000 years old while both of te preceding trees re a bit older than that.

Santaman, I’m not trying to get into a w!lly waving contest about which country has the oldest trees - just pointing out FWIW, that although it appeared on the list of the ten oldest trees in the world, the Llangeryw Yew is not even the oldest yew tree in Wales!

I drive past the yew at St Cynog’s quite often and stopped off a few months ago to have a look - nothing special to look at and no signs marking its significance, just a big old sprawling yew like in so many churchyards in the UK.

I planted 20 native yews last year - unless we get another drought before they get established, the chances are, they will see me out.

 

[Janne]

It is not willy waving, but facts.
Those trees have an estimated age. Unconfirmed as so much is missing.

Oldest trees with a confirmed age seems to mainly grow in the north Americas. ( I guess less chance of being cut down/destroyed due to less population / less agricultural clearing historically?)

Unless this is still true:
https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrC1FSoZX1cg1sAcpBXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEya29oZXRkBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjY4MjFfMQRzZWMDc3I-/RV=2/RE=1551750697/RO=10/RU=https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080416104320.htm/RK=2/RS=cHFnZNRqs2N2ESBz2LOGsMi9Kcw-

9500 years old, which is incredible.
in Mayfield there is a Yew 'forest' that is made from root shoots, the original trunk has been gone for several centuries. It must be close to the Welsh Oldies.

 

[Robson Valley]

Back to soil pits and charcoal again, 100km west of my place is Chun T'oh Whudujut(= the ancient place)
which has not been burned for 7,000 years. A number of the western red cedars are estimated by size
to be 4,000 years old. The tree cores always rot so exact age determination from a ring count is impossible.
The park reserve is very well organized for public visitors with wheel chair access on elevated wooden trailways.

Disturbance defeats succession, that's been very easily followed here.
What seral stages you can expect in Ashdown will depend on how much ongoing interference there is after fire.
I'm convinced that this is a visual opportunity not to be missed.

 

[Janne]

Plenty of sheep there, they keep the landscape kind of open. It used to be a hunting area in the good old days.
The ground is heavily trampled.

Despite the limited 'wildness' it is still very beautiful. Specially when the gorse/ horse flowers.

Has it been determined if the fires were caused by man?

 

[santaman2000]

Santaman, I’m not trying to get into a w!lly waving contest about which country has the oldest trees - just pointing out FWIW, that although it appeared on the list of the ten oldest trees in the world, the Llangeryw Yew is not even the oldest yew tree in Wales!

I drive past the yew at St Cynog’s quite often and stopped off a few months ago to have a look - nothing special to look at and no signs marking its significance, just a big old sprawling yew like in so many churchyards in the UK.

I planted 20 native yews last year - unless we get another drought before they get established, the chances are, they will see me out.

My point isn’t about which country had the oldest trees. Rather it was that most of them are conifers rather than hardwoods.

If we absolutely must start waving willies though, it would appear that prize goes to Japan for a tree that’s confirmed over 2000 years and widely believed to be over 5000 years. (The 9th photo on that list —— the Jomon Sugi)