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A guyline Knot/hitch/bend for Poncho and Tarps......

Discussion in 'Bushcraft and survival skills' started by lostplanet, Oct 19, 2012.

  1. lostplanet

    lostplanet Full Member

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    .............New? Well probably not..... I couldn't describe what this is, and couldn't find any similar pictures and info on the net. I find it hard to believe that this hasn't been thought of before or maybe it isn't actually much use, so after quite a bit of experimenting I finally got to this..

    [​IMG]

    After reading trunks post about guyline adjusters and tensioners and all the associated gadgetry that can be bought, I went looking for a solution to the guylines being attached to the tarp or poncho with nothing more than the line you have got already, some time and a Knot or two.

    For the time being I am calling this the "buckle loop" because it originally came to me when I made a platted paracord belt and wanted something simple to keep it closed made from cord. The cord with small overhand kind of acts like a buckle prong keeping the knot attached to the tarp eyelet.

    We know things break, wear out, disappear at the most awkward of times, so having something like the knowledge to tie the knot weighs nothing (as is well documented on these forums), solves the problem quickly and costs very little. I know There are already plenty of knots out there which can do the job but nothing "I could find" that acts like a carabiner or open gate device made of cord for quick attachment and detachment to/from an eyelet.

    For tarp use, I wanted the adjustable Three turn hitch side of the guy line near to the tarp eyelet so it could be adjusted underneath easily and quickly. The other end would be a simple clove hitch to a tent peg or a evenk type knot to a tree.

    [​IMG]

    For poncho use, it gives a quick solution to the problem of having guy lines already attached making it a quick tarp rather than a wearable poncho. The buckle loop allows you to quickly attach or detach guy lines depending on the situation.

    It will be able to be improved but for now it works so heres how to tie it.

    I started with a piece of 550 paracord at around 700mm(roughly 30 inches) long(shorter than this will probably be hard to tie the figure 8). From there I laid it out like a very flat Z shape.

    [​IMG]

    From there you will need a little extra cord in the tail or prong, about 2 inches, to sit in the loop nicely later.
    [​IMG]

    Gather the 3 strands in the middle and tie a overhand or figure 8 knot (using a single overhand here to reduce bulk will be harder to untie) so you end up with this:

    Pull the figure eight tight equally.

    [​IMG]

    Then tie a overhand in the tail or prong. after more experimentation it seems the "double overhand" knot is easier to untie than a locked single overhand.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Line up overhand Or double overhand with the edge of the loop roughly. If the tail pulls through the loop when applying tension move the overhand up or down until it gets gripped by the loop.

    [​IMG]

    You can cut the other sides tail off if you want but I have been wrapping it round in a sort of stopper knot to keep it out the way.

    From there you tie your Three turn taut line (adjustable grip hitch) through the non knotted loop side of the buckle loop.

    [​IMG]

    Thread the loop though the eyelet of your tarp or poncho and then thread the tail or prong through the loop and pull tight against the overhand knot.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    That's all it is, I have tried shaking my poncho and so far I haven't had it undo under tension or not. So far I have only tested it indoors, and have found that the eyelet would probably pull out before the tail or prong got pulled though the loop. I will continue testing next time I am out.

    Update on testing. I just tried lifting a 10 kilo dumbell and that held without slipping. I then tried lifting a 19 Liter waterbottle at the handle and this didn't slip either. Next I tried the 19 liter bottle again after soaking the paracord in water and still no slippage. So "should" be plenty strong enough for Tarp/poncho guylines.

    Update 2017: I have been using this knot for several years now and it hasn't let me down yet.

    Enjoy.....
     
    #1 lostplanet, Oct 19, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2017
  2. Stew

    Stew Bushcrafter through and through

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    Interesting idea.

    I haven't played with a three turn taut line knot but it looks just like it will be a triple overhand knot? That sound right? How are you adjusting it - sliding it up and down the loop or pulling more line though the knot.
     
  3. lostplanet

    lostplanet Full Member

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    The three turn hitch is just a name I picked up from this fella, it just seems to make the adjustable grip hitch look a bit neater. The grip hitch is free to move in the second loop of the buckle loop so tension can be adjusted easily and as you would if the adjustable grip hitch was already tied to the tarp or poncho eyelet or webbing loop. The "buckle loop" is just playing carabiner between the paracord and the eyelet.

    http://www.asiteaboutnothing.net/cr_knots-optional.html#entry
     
  4. Teepee

    Teepee Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)

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    Nice post and I like the experimentation :)

    IME, the loop and a stopper knot will hold. Its a similar method to a sailing favourite soft shackle. I used these for a year to hold my hammock to tree straps.

    The overhand knot will probably hold in paracord, but not with slippery modern high tech lines. The overhand knot will eventually collapse in the wind. The Diamond or Halyard knot is recommended as its physically much bigger and won't ever collapse. A very useful knot too.

    There is a more secure and easier to use knot that is the ideal quick release for this IMO-the Scarab. It uses a series of overhand knots tied round the loop, which acts as a sliding knotted sleeve to stop the loop from coming off the stopper knot. I've replaced some plastic cord locks with it on stuff sacks and made a few "Scarab" soft shackles.

    Check out this thread on Hammock Forums for a multitude of different ideas to help you simplify things. The Scarab comes in later pages ;)

    [​IMG]
    Another idea for you, the "Integrated soft shackle". Combine this with the solomon bar and Bob is your granny's cousins barbers dogs auntie :)
     
    #4 Teepee, Oct 19, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2012
  5. ex-member BareThrills

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    I like this mate. great use of knots. Ive used a similar setup with the taught line hitch and crabs at the tarp end. this effectively does away with the need for crabs = lighter :)
     
  6. Stew

    Stew Bushcrafter through and through

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    Aah, that makes more sense now - your knot pic wasn't finsihed. :D It's basically an unbalanced prussic.

    It's clearer what you're doing now. I think you could do the same thing with a single length but I would need to think about it a bit.
     
  7. lostplanet

    lostplanet Full Member

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    Thanks All, Added another picture with the adjustable grip nearly closed.

    I did play with a one piece, one loop setup. I think it helps that the prong part is locked solid in the middle of the figure 8 so that it can't move.

    Any excuse for it to slip by the pressure of the loop will make it undo, I think??

    Also I dont have any modern cords other than paracord to try but I did use a figure eight instead of the single overhand, it seemed to give it more bite and was easier to untie but seeing as it hasn't slipped with a single overhand I kept it simple.

    19 Kilos lift and bounce makes it pretty strong so far, but I guess like anything it needs realworld use to find the unforeseen.

    As for the soft shackle set ups, I can see there purpose and strength as seen on DD's website but they still need some skill to splice and make. They would take a lot longer to produce than the buckle loop which can be made from one piece of paracord in 2 minutes and much less I would imagine with practice.

    It's all good, I am looking forward to trying these out and the feedback will be intresting too and best of all it is more or less free!!
     
    #7 lostplanet, Oct 19, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2012
  8. Joonsy

    Joonsy Native

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  9. lostplanet

    lostplanet Full Member

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    Thanks! Yes, I did considier that knot, it happens to be on the page in the link to the Three turn hitch. So far the buckle loop hasn't slipped with a single overhand but if it does that will be the second (after a figure eight) Knot I try to resolve it. The only reason I haven't used that knot is that it is a little complicated at first, but I am sure people will adopt it and can always use the overhand if the Ashley gets forgotten.

    Further to this if the ashley stopper is to be used it may well be easier to tie it first and then create the buckle loop. The ashley will use more cord and may not line up with the loop. You can adjust the main figure 8 to suit quite easily.
     
    #9 lostplanet, Oct 19, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2012
  10. lostplanet

    lostplanet Full Member

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    Another update is to substitute the single overhand for a double overhand. it is easier to untie should the need arise and creates more bulk than the single overhand. This may also be easier to add before the large center figure eight is tied. I'm going to have a practice and test and see if it makes much difference with other knots on the prong.

    [​IMG]

    http://www.animatedknots.com/doubleoverhand/index.php
     
    #10 lostplanet, Oct 19, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2012
  11. Joonsy

    Joonsy Native

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    Hi, another method (not dismissing your own just a suggestion) is a stopper knot one end with an alpine butterly loop to retain stopper knot and a tautline the other end for adjustment, if you replaced the alpine butterfly with an overhand slip-knot you could close the loop right up over stopper knot for maximum holding power if you wished, i realise this way the adjustment is at the opposite end to your own method though, photo attached (sorry poor quality) shows an Ashleys Stopper / Alpine Buterfly / Slipped Tautline.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. lostplanet

    lostplanet Full Member

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    Thanks joonsy, One of the reasons for the tautline being tied in already at the tarp end (along with the adjustment possible while under or close too the tarp) is that I have found that TLH/knot the longest to tie and untie. One of the prerequisites in my experiment was to be able to have a guy line unpacked, unhanked, tied and adjusted in as quick a time as possible. Not completely necessary I know but anyway.....

    For instance, (This is how I went about thinking) If you imagine pulling the guyline out of a bag say, then unhanking the line, fitting to the tarp eyelet, then evenk to a tree or clove hitch to a peg and then adjust tension, it makes for a very quick setup as the main time consuming but essential knot/hitch (IMO) is already in place. I reaslie it's only seconds difference, I do find if something can be done quickly generally it very simple too and sometimes you just want to get setup and chillout.

    Thanks for the continuing information.
     
    #12 lostplanet, Oct 19, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2012
  13. lostplanet

    lostplanet Full Member

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    double post
     
  14. Stew

    Stew Bushcrafter through and through

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    Like Joonsy, I also thought an Alpine Butterfly for your top loop. The one you've done works but just looks unneccesarrily bulky. It does give you the two loops though.

    [​IMG]

    For your stopper knot, have you considered using a bight of the line then passing the other leg though. I suspect you may not even need a stopper knot if you do this (I only had scissors as a suitable 'hole' to hand)

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I was wondering if a taut line could be put in the line so had a very quick tinker.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    It can be done but leaves a limited range of movement, depending on how big of a loop you leave. It depends on how much adjustment you want to have in the line at the top but does allow it to be one length rather than two.
     
  15. Teepee

    Teepee Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)

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    The Scarab I linked to (in one of the many pages) has no splice. Its just a lanyard/diamond knot with a sliding knotted collar made from a seiries of reef knots to hold the loop over the stopper knot. The spliced soft shackle is harder to undo and harder to make if your not used to splicing.
     
  16. lostplanet

    lostplanet Full Member

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    I have found that without a stopper knot as soon as load is applied the knot wants to slip and it undoes. I mainly use the staircase to tie too which is smooth wood.

    The bulk of the figure 8 in the middle is only because it's easier to untie than a single overhand. Lifting 19 kilos tends to overtighten the knots, There may be another knot to replace this though.

    I am preferring the double overhand as a stopper knot so will update the process to reflect this.

    Also another factor is, as suggested, making the stopper knot much more bulky (with an ashley) so that along with the cord that is already in the eyelet, it will make the hole smaller thus stopping the now larger than the eyelet stopper from be able to be pulled through and releasing. I'll add a pic of this later.
     
  17. Stew

    Stew Bushcrafter through and through

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    I get that the figure eight makes it easy to untie. ith my way, there is no tying or untying to do. I thought you wanted quick. ;)

    If you're still tying, use the transport knot or a variant of. One knot, one line. Just do it at the tarp end and tie off using the tarp ring so you can adjust from under your tarp. It's quick to tie.
     
  18. lostplanet

    lostplanet Full Member

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    Not being a member means I can't search the forum very well (300+ pages), could you link to the page for the scarab/diamond knot?
     
  19. lostplanet

    lostplanet Full Member

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    looks too complicated to be honest,

    And No, I wanted quick once tied. move from eyelet to eyelet quickly then adjust tension, with paracord only. I didn't want any other devices than the cord you have in your hand, which I am pretty sure the Buckle Loop has acheived.
     
  20. Stew

    Stew Bushcrafter through and through

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    Transport knot looks complicated on paper but in practice not. I'll do a vid later, although you seem quite set on what you want to do.
     

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