vegetarianism and bushcraft

[grahoom]

hello,

i am new here.

i was wondering what peoples views on here were regarding eating meat / the meat industry etc.

i personally have come to the decision that i will only eat meat if i have caught it myself - so i go fishing (as i live by the sea) and will eat fish that i catch, and would eat any game that i have caught (i would probably make exceptions when it comes about learning about preparing game to eat - as you gotta learn some how)

i dont see anything wrong with humans eating other animals, but my main problem is the treatment of animals, and the destruction of natural resources (the fish stocks from mass fishing etc) - and also i find it a little disturbing that people are able to abstract themselves from the concept of meat and where meat has come from.

any peoples views?

 

[shinobi]

Wow, that's exactly the conclusion I've come to !!!!

I've been vegetarian for fourteen years because of the animal welfare issue as well as spiritual reasons. However, I'm not one of the pale past vegetarians, I believe in nature, red in tooth and claw.
Recently I've started to eat meat, but only meat that has not been farmed. I too aspire to only eat food that i've been involved with either the capture or preparation of. As my interest in self sufficiency increased, I spent a lot of time on the beach thinking. Living on the coast, I was ignoring one of natures fullest larders, so I too have just started to learn to sea fish, I've only been once, but I managed to catch lunch
I've managed to find some fantastic tutors in game capture and preparation, (Thanks Gary and PW) who are educating me in the path of ethical food preparation. A lot better than me going out on my own and causing pain and suffering to animals.

See you on the beach sometime?

Martin

 

[HuBBa]

Well, imho, the mass production of meat IS a problem. No argument there.

Am i vegitarian? Most definately not. I do however prefere fish to red meat/pork.

But i have become a lot more selective in what i buy. I only buy meat over the dish, so i can examine it (hate those celophane wrapped packages) and i have completely stopped buying refactored (dunno if that is the word) food. Ie. no pre-made meatballs, sausages, fishsticks, turky twizzlers etc etc. And never pre-made food (ie. micro-dinners).

This type of food is not only useless when it comes to nutrition values, it's also overpriced, takes pretty much exactly the same time too cook and is very often the worst meat.

The steak or tenderloin im buying over the country i know where it came from. And if asked, the butcher (even if it's a store) can probably tell me what farm it came from. If it's a meatball or sausage, it is often pretty hard to tell where that meat came from and also how it was treated. The meatcontent in most of these products are also very low.

Now a little bit of clarification for those who do not know this. The whole issue of animals being treated poorly during slaughter, transports, breeding etc. does not only have to do with "mushy" animal-rights activists conscious. A stressed out animal produces stress hormones which will be in the meat you eat. Now, there is debating if these hormones are dangerous or not, some say they are some say there are not enough evidence. Bottom line is that it's most likely a good idea to treat the animals well instead as it will produce better quality meat.

The market is what govern this however. So as long as you buy inferior food, the companies will continue to produce them =)

Which is why i stopped.

PS. Would i eat what i hunt? Of course. If i were allowed to But living in the city without any land i own, the only thing i can come close to hunting is skirts & fish. And skirts are hard to catch DS.

 

[Andy]

I'm a veggi

I too went veggi becasue of the way the meat industry works and though about shooting the odd bit for the pot. I then decided that I couldn't trust myself to get a clean kill every time and didn't really like meat anyway so wouldn't bother hunting.
I would hunt if I needed the food but don't.

There's a number of people who wont eat meat around here.

 

[Ogri the trog]

grahoom,
Yours is about the most level headed aproach that I've come across for a long time. The meat that I buy is from a butcher that I know personally, who buys from farmers that I know. I help out on their farms when I can, so I know the conditions are the best they can be. I think you are right to find it disturbing that modern society can mentally seperate the purchase of meat from the slaughter of its host.
To ignore meat in a bushcraft situation, I believe is folly, as it contains valuable protein. But vegetarianism on ethical grounds when there is no need for meat has to be applauded.

ATB

Ogri the trog

 

[BorderReiver]

hello,

i am new here.

i was wondering what peoples views on here were regarding eating meat / the meat industry etc.

i personally have come to the decision that i will only eat meat if i have caught it myself - so i go fishing (as i live by the sea) and will eat fish that i catch, and would eat any game that i have caught (i would probably make exceptions when it comes about learning about preparing game to eat - as you gotta learn some how)

i dont see anything wrong with humans eating other animals, but my main problem is the treatment of animals, and the destruction of natural resources (the fish stocks from mass fishing etc) - and also i find it a little disturbing that people are able to abstract themselves from the concept of meat and where meat has come from.

any peoples views?

Hello Grahoom and welcome to the forum.

I eat meat,I love it.If it was possible I would catch all my own food,but alas in this day and age(and my age )it isn't possible.
So I go for the next best thing and eat organic.I will not eat any processed food that contains animal because of the fact that the animal products(meat is too specific a term for what's in most "convenience" foods)is obtained at the cheapest possible price.The low price means low standards of animal care.
It makes me angry that our farmers are forced (rightly IMO)to keep stock in a humane way,and yet we still allow the import of cheap meat from outside the UK which is force grown in deplorable conditions.The mass pig growing factories of the USA and Holland spring to mind.
I eat and enjoy quite a bit of vegetarian food,but you can't beat a good feed of animal that's been taken from nature,quickly and cleanly dispatched.Yum

 

[grahoom]

i stopped eating meat when i was 19 - and a lot of that was due to animal rights issues, since then i have realised that i dont follow the idea that humans should be vegetarian, our bodies seem to be designed to be omnivours, but i am fortunate to live in a place where i am able to quite easily live without meat in my diet (i do get cravings).

i go fishing and enjoy catching fish for the sole purpose to eat. - was in japan recently and we caught some scorpion rock fish, weird little things, quite spikey, ugly - and we ate these sushami - which means raw - with soy sauce and wasabi. - it was lovely, and we also ate them whole (they are quite small fish some of them) - deep fried in flour and seasoning (wasnt so keen on this style).

i personally feel that i want to show some respect to any animal that i am going to eat.

hey HuBBa - good luck in your skirt hunting

 

[FeralSheryl]

Vegetarian and pretty healthy I'd say. The nice thing about being an omnivorous species is we don't actually have to track, kill and prepare other animals in order to live, eat damn tasty food and be well nourished. So as long as I don't have to, I ain't gonna.

It's perfectly natural to eat meat of course, but personally I'm more interested in what an animal is thinking than what it tastes like

 

[archiet]

I'm vegan which means I don't eat or use any animal by-products at all (well, this is the theory, it is almost impossible to be a purist about these things but I do try).

I am a vegan for animal rights and ecological reasons. I believe that all sentient beings deserve to be respected and not kept imprisoned etc. I believe that where an animal does have to be killed (if I was starving or for humane reasons or whatever) it should be done with respect and acknowledgement that this animal has given up its life to enable you to survive. Since this respect can't be given in a factory setting or mass market I can't be part of that and supprt those that actively try and stop it.

I have, however, done some of the basic wilderness courses and have learnt how to set snares and how to prepare fish etc because I feel that it is important to know these skills. If we were to live purely off the land as primitive cultures do we would have to supplement our diets at some times with animals and I want to make sure I do this as well as possible.

For those that are interested here is something I've found quite interesting as an argument against veganism which I think is worth reading.

http://www.blackandgreen.org/beyond.html

Also maybe do a search for paleo-diet on google. The paleo diet surmises that we have evolved to eat a diet that includes something like 10% meat and therefore this would be the ultimate diet.

Sorry if this post appears contradictory, but, basically I agree with the comment that while there's an alternative to having to kill another being, I will not do it.

 

[FeralSheryl]

Far from contradictory, I'd say your post shows a healthy mental attitude, mate.

Interestingly a friend of mine was only saying this weekend that during the second World War, due to rationing, meat made up about 10 per cent of a person's diet. The media does keep telling us that people in Britain were a lot more healthy then. It sounds like the optimum balance, but I still say if I can do without it I will and it's one aspect of Bushcraft I'd rather leave alone.

 

[EdS]

I too was veggie for 10 years, but now I eat meat. I only eat meat that has been low intensity rear, prefferable organic or wild meat.

Part of the problem with a veggie diet was the alternatives ie soya. In the end I decided that this was even more unethical - it is a chemical & water intesive crop, often GMed and controlled by the likes of Mosanto. I decided to eat meat again if it was local from small scale producers.

Mind you my first meat after 10 years was road kill venison - couldn't let it go to waste.

 

[Not Bob]

Archiet - this isn't aimed at you. I'm aware you're just passing on information.

The paleo diet surmises that we have evolved to eat a diet that includes something like 10% meat and therefore this would be the ultimate diet.

These statements really get my goat. Which hunter-gatherers only eat 10% meat and when in history? I can't see how the particular group of our ancestors who hunted mammoth in the Pleistocene tundra managed to get 90% of their food from non-animal sources. It just seems like another case of lumping all the incredible variety of our ancestors ways of living into one homogenous lump just to support some argument and/or sell some book.

And in case anyone's wondering I don't have any issues with people who won't eat animal products for whatever reason or anyone who might eat only meat. As adults we make our own choices.

 

[bambodoggy]

I'm vegan which means I don't eat or use any animal by-products at all (well, this is the theory, it is almost impossible to be a purist about these things but I do try).

I am a vegan for animal rights and ecological reasons. I believe that all sentient beings deserve to be respected and not kept imprisoned etc. I believe that where an animal does have to be killed (if I was starving or for humane reasons or whatever) it should be done with respect and acknowledgement that this animal has given up its life to enable you to survive. Since this respect can't be given in a factory setting or mass market I can't be part of that and supprt those that actively try and stop it.

I have, however, done some of the basic wilderness courses and have learnt how to set snares and how to prepare fish etc because I feel that it is important to know these skills. If we were to live purely off the land as primitive cultures do we would have to supplement our diets at some times with animals and I want to make sure I do this as well as possible.

For those that are interested here is something I've found quite interesting as an argument against veganism which I think is worth reading.

http://www.blackandgreen.org/beyond.html

Also maybe do a search for paleo-diet on google. The paleo diet surmises that we have evolved to eat a diet that includes something like 10% meat and therefore this would be the ultimate diet.

Sorry if this post appears contradictory, but, basically I agree with the comment that while there's an alternative to having to kill another being, I will not do it.

Can't argue with any of that Matey I'm a meat eater and generally don't have much time for veggies or vegans but I can understand where you're coming from, what you choose to eat is up to you my friend just as what I eat is up to me but I do like your point about eating meat if it was more....natural, if that's the right way to put it.
I do eat supermarket meat as I live in a society where as a meat eater it's almost impossible not to but I far prefer to catch, kill or otherwise procure my own meat and prepare it myself, partly because it seems to always taste nicer when I've worked for it, partly because I can take full responsibility for killing and preparing it properly and partly because I feel that the animal has had a good life, it's been wild and free and is now giving up it's life so that I can eat just as nature intended, it hasn't been locked in a dark and cramped box for it's whole life and it hasn't qued up waiting to be slaughtered. And as I do eat both I feel that each time I do it myself I'm not adding to the consummer meat demand.

It's always a nice thing to hear a vegan/veggie that has a realistic stance as well as a belief in what they do....good for you buddy

Cheers,

Bam.

 

[bambodoggy]

Oh yes, I meant to say....can't remember who it was but I was talking to somebody about this the other day, I think it might have been at the ashdown meet, and they said that there had been some survey or another of British school kids (can't remember the ages) and about 80% ish (can't remember the exact figure) said they thought you could get meat from animals without harming them.... a rather sad reflection on our education system I think.... and I'd love to know how they think the farmers manage that. But no wonder there's not enough pressure on the meat industry to change when their methods are so well hiden from public (or at least future public) view.

The nearest I can think of is some of the african tribes who draw blood from their cattle to drink/eat, this gives them all the meaty goodness they need but they don't kill anything and so the cow lasts it's whole life in the herd... what a fantasticly simple idea and so efficient but I doubt that's what the school kids meant! lol

If whoever it was I was talking to can remember the survey properly then please feel free to correct me

Cheers,

Bam.

 

[grahoom]

I have, however, done some of the basic wilderness courses and have learnt how to set snares and how to prepare fish etc because I feel that it is important to know these skills. If we were to live purely off the land as primitive cultures do we would have to supplement our diets at some times with animals and I want to make sure I do this as well as possible.


Sorry if this post appears contradictory, but, basically I agree with the comment that while there's an alternative to having to kill another being, I will not do it.

yeah this is a really good and valid point. and i respect you a great deal in what you believe in.

and - lucky for us, there is an alternative.

personally, i feel the same in some respects; if an animal is to be killed then it should be done with as much respect as possible.

there is a great tale about Mullah Nasrudin.

(i will paraphrase)

Nasrudin met a Yogi in India, and the Yogi was quite dismissif of Nasrudin. then the subject matter came up of the importance of animals. Now the Yogi was a vegan, and had great respect for animals.

Nasrudin said "an animal saved my life once"
and the Yogi was amazed - and his attitude changed.
"please tell me, master, how this happened"

Nasrudin declined, and kept on meditating.

after many day, with each day passing the Yogi begging Nasrudin to tell him about how an animal had saved his life - Nasrudin finally gave in and said.

"Well i was starving and i caught a fish and ate it - and thus the fish saved my life"


the wonderful tales of Nasrudin

(this is told as best as i can recall it)

 

[archiet]

These statements really get my goat. Which hunter-gatherers only eat 10% meat and when in history? I can't see how the particular group of our ancestors who hunted mammoth in the Pleistocene tundra managed to get 90% of their food from non-animal sources. It just seems like another case of lumping all the incredible variety of our ancestors ways of living into one homogenous lump just to support some argument and/or sell some book.

And in case anyone's wondering I don't have any issues with people who won't eat animal products for whatever reason or anyone who might eat only meat. As adults we make our own choices.

Sorry, I was giving a really vague comment about the paleodiet. My understanding is that someone studied the diets of the 80 odd hunter-gatherer tribes that survive today and analysed these overall.

There is a lot more to this diet than the amount of meat (but we were talking about meat rather than diet generally). It is also the types of meat (i.e offal etc) and the fact that much of their diet is raw/fresh food I think.

 

[Not Bob]

Archiet

I wasn't getting at you and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. The paleo-diet theorists have some interesting dietary advice; it's the basis for their theory I have problems with. Early humans at different times and in different places ate different things depending on what was available, what season it was and so on. Why assume that the relatively few hunter-gatherer societies still around today are representative of our earliest ancestors? No one knows for certain what our earliest ancestors ate - there's not much evidence to go on, some foodstuffs don't preserve well, and historically archaeologists (perhaps because they've usually been male) have tended to emphasize the role of hunting over gathering vegetable foods or even trapping.

 

[Not Bob]

Interestingly enough some recent studies of modern hunter-gatherer diets have put their consumption of animal-based foods as 59 - 84% of their total calorific intake. You pays your money and you makes your choice.

 

[dtalbot]

I don't eat much meat at all, maybe a couple of rabbits and a joint or two of venison, sent to the next world by a better shot than me after a life as nature intended. I just don't like most meat though willl eat it if nothing else is on offer such as in the resteraunts of some European cities where business associates take me. Most of it is I don't like meat. I've no problem at all if the rest of the family wants it but I certainly don't agree with the way most of it is produced. Some of the worst animal cruelty going is done in the name of providing Britain with cheap meat. Given the price of say 'economy' chicken in the supermarkets there is no way it can have been well looked after in low intensity farming.
Cheers
David

 

[Keith_Beef]

..snip..
it seems to always taste nicer when I've worked for it
..snip..

From the way my cats behaved, food was always nicer when it was stolen.

Keith.