Another dumb squirrel verdict

[trail2]

I have just read in Countryman's Weekly (kindly sent to me by fellow member Peaks) that the RSPCA successfully prosecuted a fellow for drowning a trapped tree rat. The fellow gets banged up to the tune of 1500 GBP.Seems the only approved method of dispatch is lethal injection administered by a vet.
Have things not got totally out of hand in regards to "animal rights"?
Surely a little common sense is in order here .

 

[JonathanD]

I have just read in Countryman's Weekly (kindly sent to me by fellow member Peaks) that the RSPCA successfully prosecuted a fellow for drowning a trapped tree rat. The fellow gets banged up to the tune of 1500 GBP.Seems the only approved method of dispatch is lethal injection administered by a vet.
Have things not got totally out of hand in regards to "animal rights"?
Surely a little common sense is in order here .

Drowning is a horrible way to go and I'm in two minds on this verdict, but leaning towards agreeing with it as no doubt the circumstances had more than drowning involved. I don't think many here would practice drowning on animals for the very fact it is not quick or pleasant and the animal would be very distressed.

 

[PREPER]

PREPER..........

 

[Matt.S]

Seems the only approved method of dispatch is lethal injection administered by a vet.

Got a source for that?

 

[sapper1]

at the risk of offending people,the quickest and simplest method of killing any animal is generally drowning.It requires only a relatively small amount of water and a bit of arm strength.Think back to the days of unwanted litters of cats,what happened to them?They went into a bucket with a lid on and full of water.
If the squirrel was in the guys hand to be drowned then he could probably have used a priest to despatch it,the end result would have been the same,just a little less suffering for the squirrel.

 

[BorderReiver]

Not the way to do it. Shoot; break neck; hit on head, not drown.

And don't let anyone else know!

 

[BorderReiver]

at the risk of offending people,the quickest and simplest method of killing any animal is generally drowning.It requires only a relatively small amount of water and a bit of arm strength.Think back to the days of unwanted litters of cats,what happened to them?They went into a bucket with a lid on and full of water.
If the squirrel was in the guys hand to be drowned then he could probably have used a priest to despatch it,the end result would have been the same,just a little less suffering for the squirrel.

New born mammals have only just begun to breathe and have no experience of anything.

A mature squirrel will fight and struggle to survive and suffer pain and stress. Much more humane to put it out quickly.
There is no excuse at all to cause unnecessary suffering to any animal.

 

[rommy]

I've discussed this case thoroughly on a shooting forum. The man pleaded guilty and that is the only reason he was fined - the judge had no choice but any decent lawyer would have got him off.

If he had pleaded not guilty, then it would have been necessary for the court to prove that he INTENDED to cause cruelty which this man clearly did not but endeavoured to kill it as quickly as possible by dumping the vermin, trap and all into a barrel of water.

Anyone who says he should have taken it out of the trap to despatch it more humanely clearly doesn't know squirrels - it would take your fingers off and escape, for which you could be prosecuted!!!

This man - of previously good character now has a criminal record and was fined £1500 pounds despite being a low paid worker.

The Rspca have now set a precedent, they say that the only acceptable of disposing of vermin is by lethal injection. Farmers and pest control professionals could now face similar sentences for poisoning rats.

I reckon that any future live captures of vermin should be taken to your local Rspca office and see them dispose of them humanely - that should be worth watching! Geoff.

 

[trail2]

Matt.S
The only source I can quote is the article. It would lead one to believe that this is an RSPCA "guideline".
As to whether drowning is humane .... But if you live trap an animal and have no access to a fire arm and don't want to stick your hand in the trap....? Ever seen what a squirrel can do to a dog that caught it on the ground. Translate that to your hand.
So next time someone catches a mouse in a sticky trap,how are they supposed to get rid of it.
Sure we all know mice are vermin and pest, but then so are Greys right?
I am not debating the merits of one method over another. Just saying this action opens the door to all sorts off the wall prosecutions. Anyone know how the squirrels that Blundens where selling where killed? A law suit in the making don't you think?
I think rommy has the right idea. Drop them off at the local RSPCA and tell them you will pick up your traps in a couple of hours.

 

[JonathanD]

Matt.S
The only source I can quote is the article. It would lead one to believe that this is an RSPCA "guideline".
As to whether drowning is humane .... But if you live trap an animal and have no access to a fire arm and don't want to stick your hand in the trap....? Ever seen what a squirrel can do to a dog that caught it on the ground. Translate that to your hand.
So next time someone catches a mouse in a sticky trap,how are they supposed to get rid of it.
Sure we all know mice are vermin and pest, but then so are Greys right?
I am not debating the merits of one method over another. Just saying this action opens the door to all sorts off the wall prosecutions. Anyone know how the squirrels that Blundens where selling where killed? A law suit in the making don't you think?
I think rommy has the right idea. Drop them off at the local RSPCA and tell them you will pick up your traps in a couple of hours.

If you trap an animal, you should also be able to dispatch them humanely. Otherwise you do no have the right to trap them. Sounds like an amateur thing to do, trap an animal, then realise you have no way of dispatching them so chuck them in a pond. That is not the ethos that we should be promoting.

 

[rommy]

That is not the ethos that we should be promoting.

No one is promoting anything, only asking for common sense to be applied. I would have shot it but this chap was unprepared. How many others would have done the same? If he released it back into the wild he would be breaking the law. If he tried to take it out of the trap, he would have lost fingers.

What purpose did a prosecution achieve? Wouldn't some advice have helped? How about the cage manufacturers putting some information on their product that when you catch the vermin, you have to take it to a vet to be humanely put to sleep at a cost of £70!!

Why can't you drown vermin but can administer poison that takes four days to kill, resulting in blood pouring from every orifice - is that humane?

Is shooting a rabbit humane? - not all are perfect shots.

Will all halal killing by cutting the throat now be banned?

The Rspca has now opened a can of worms. Will they be prosecuted for 'colouring' this case by stating that the grey squirrel is a protected species?

Are countries such as Australia or states of America where the drowning of vermin is a preferred method, now to be ostrascised?

Like I said, I'm not condoning what he did - merely thinking about where all this might lead, if we cant kill rats - tree or ground - by anything other then injection, then heaven help us. Regards, Geoff.

 

[JonathanD]

No one is promoting anything, only asking for common sense to be applied. I would have shot it but this chap was unprepared.

I never said anyone was promoting anything, just that the method should not be promoted. If he was unprepared to deal with a trapped animal,then he should not have been trapping

- What purpose did a prosecution achieve?

Sets an example that this sort of behaviour is not acceptable maybe??

-Why can't you drown vermin but can administer poison that takes four days to kill, resulting in blood pouring from every orifice - is that humane?

No, poisoning also effects other wildlife and birds, but that opens up another entire subject

- Is shooting a rabbit humane? - not all are perfect shots.

Yes it is, but not if you are not proficient with a rifle, in that case you have no right to shoot them.

-Will all halal killing by cutting the throat now be banned?

Doubt it, but that too is another subject.

The Rspca has now opened a can of worms. Will they be prosecuted for 'colouring' this case by stating that the grey squirrel is a protected species?

If indeed they stated that in court, then obviously they are incorrect, did it have a bearing on the verdict though? I doubt it.

Are countries such as Australia or states of America where the drowning of vermin is a preferred method, now to be ostrascised?

It's getting all a bit dramatic now from one bloke drowning a squirrel to international relations being reviewed.

- Like I said, I'm not condoning what he did - merely thinking about where all this might lead, if we cant kill rats - tree or ground - by anything other then injection, then heaven help us. Regards, Geoff.

Of course you can kill them, but use recognised humane methods. Again, there was more to that case than publicly declared, intentional cruelty to animals in any form cannot be tolerated. If you shoot and trap animals humanely on property you have permission to do those acts upon, you cannot be prosecuted.

 

[trail2]

JonathanD, you miss my point .
I agree with you that trapping has a set of ethics you should adhere to and if you are not equipped to handle the job ,don't do it.
What I'm saying is this action opens up a whole new chapter in what is perceived as either cruel or not.
Taken to it's most ridiculous extremes you could be banged up for cruelty and inflicting undue suffering if you winged your next pidgeon instead of a stone dead in the air bird.
Where I live beavers are considered a pest on small water ways. The preferred why of trapping them is a drowning set.Snaring them on dry land (these are bank beaver.)is considered inhumane, as either you have to use a lethal snare =slow strangulation or a holding wire which leads to the animal potentially being being pegged out all night=stress. Most trappers I know will not use snares on anything for the above mentioned reasons.
Guess you have to look atit in the overall view .

 

[JonathanD]

He trapped a squirrel in his back garden and then threw the cage into a water butt. That is not acceptable and he was right (IMO) to be fined. He admitted guilt. The RSPCA just gave a guidline as to how it should have been dealt with, no precedent or law was changed to recognise this and no one will get banged up unless they do something similar, this is not about country ethics, but numpties in their back gardens causing cruelty to animals. All us shooters, trappers etc, have no reason to be concerned as we are within the guidlines and are not breaking laws, the RSPCA have no jurisdiction over those accepted methods being carried out.

I am discussing this case alone, no other.

 

[rommy]

I am discussing this case alone, no other.

Do you agree that if he pleaded not guilty, then he could not have been prosecuted? ( the court would have to PROVE that he INTENDED to cause cruelty??) Regards, Geoff.

 

[JonathanD]

Do you agree that if he pleaded not guilty, then he could not have been prosecuted? ( the court would have to PROVE that he INTENDED to cause cruelty??) Regards, Geoff.

Not sure, it seems he was reported and several witnesses observed it over a period of time (no doubt his neighbours). It certainly would have made the job harder for the prosecution, but alot of facts are missing from the newspaper reports.

 

[Paul_B]

I wonder how someone who shoots rabbits gets proficient in the first place? Surely there are a lot of rabbits injured but not killed while someone is learning how to shoot rabbits.

All I know is drowning is not a good way to go. As a whitewater kayaker I know that when in trouble I fight and claw my way to the surface by whatever means I can. I'm sure the tree rat does the same in its metal trap. I know what distress whitewater has caused me at times (self inflicted and thoroughly enjoyed - AFTER the event). I've seen paddlers come seriously unstuck in rapids, falls and weirs. They fight but then they succumb and totally relax. Fortunately that often means they get swept out so people can perform resucitation. Never lost a paddler yet on a trip I've been on.

Sorry off topic but I just meant that people should have another way than drowning the critter. I do think the prosecution should have gone ahead, but if it wa a one off incident perhaps re-education is better. Always use professionals to sort out vermin IMHO. If you are as good as professional in your knowledge and skill then you can do that stuff. This guys seems like someone who thinks he knows what he's doing. Perhaps the £1500 shows he doesn't.

One prosecution does not open up any other prosecution risks. It is only one prosecution and will be forgotten. No precedent has been set here AFAIK.

 

[BOD]

Sort of off topic.

I usually destroy traps when I encounter them after examining their construction and position to find out who made and set it.

What should be the "right" thing to do? Report them and risk animals getting caught or destroy and then report?

Would I be sued by the trapper for destroying his property?

 

[Paul_B]

There was a case of a cat getting caught by an illegal leg trap in the Warton/Arnside area of North LAncs / Cumbria. The cat apparently dragged itself still attached to the trap back to its home where it was found by its owner unable to get through the catflap because of the trap. They reckoned this cat had travelled a couple of miles like that to get home. Noone got caught for it but I reckon the culprit was known just never caught. Made the local paper which is where I found out about it.

Just goes to make the general public look down on those who hunt and trap every time such a story makes the press. There is nothing wrong with hunting or trapping if you or someone you are doing it with has the knowledge, experience and appropriate kit. A jaw type leg trap is perhaps not suitable. I have to admit that I am just a member of the general public who doesn'tknow much about hunting and trapping so if what Ihave said is wrong please correct me.

 

[nigeltm]

One prosecution does not open up any other prosecution risks. It is only one prosecution and will be forgotten. No precedent has been set here AFAIK.

A judge has accepted the plea and this is now case law and a precedent HAS been set. In the same way the case in the 1990's set the precedent that a lock knife is considered to be the same as a fixed blade, this case has accepted that the mans actions were illegal. As such it can be cited in future cases and used as justification for arrests.

It is a prosecution risk for those daft enough (or ignorant) to do the same thing.

More worryingly to me it fuels the fire of the animal rights campaigners. Now the RSPCA have a conviction on these grounds they are likely to press for more, while other more militant groups use it as justification for their actions. This is one of the risks of our legal system. An ill-advised person's admission of guilt or a judge with an agenda can slowly erode the common sense basis behind a law. Bit by bit we lose the spirit of the law and all suffer for it.