I think I've missed a chapter here................Where did the fell runner come from ?....................in both news reports posted he was described as a hill walker.
'Complacent' hillwalker rescued
- Thread starter Doc
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Here's what the MR team leader said
He urged hillwalkers and climbers to ensure they were equipped to deal with whatever the weather has to throw at them.Carry spare, dry, warm clothing, a survival bag or bothy, hot drinks, a map, compass, torch and a spare as well as an ice axe and crampons, he said.Id also ask people to check the mountain weather forecast before setting off and retreat as quickly as possible if the weather starts to turn.
Apart from fire starting and FAK, it's pretty much the same as our 10 essentials.
Are you suggesting that the MR leader is a fool?
Bear in mind, with a cell phone failure, this guy would probably be dead.
BTW, if any of you ever go climbing/hiking in the Alps, or in the US, make sure you have rescue and medical insurance, because if anything goes wrong, you will need it. (so there is an 11th essential)
Apart from fire starting and FAK, it's pretty much the same as our 10 essentials.
Are you suggesting that the MR leader is a fool?
Bear in mind, with a cell phone failure, this guy would probably be dead.
BTW, if any of you ever go climbing/hiking in the Alps, or in the US, make sure you have rescue and medical insurance, because if anything goes wrong, you will need it. (so there is an 11th essential)
Yep, I know in France, if you have to be rescued from a mountain (usually by the Gendarmerie) you will recieve the bill which will include the use of hellicopters ( if applicable)...........I don't know though if you have to pay if they find you dead.
I suppose the other way to look at it is that if you are a fell runner and unless you are in a race, then carrying the weight of the 'ten esstentials' or whatever is deemed absolutley basic would just be making training more challenging.
I've run with a few kilo on the back before and didn't notice any massive change ot my running style - I just got out of puff sooner.
I've run with a few kilo on the back before and didn't notice any massive change ot my running style - I just got out of puff sooner.
Your absolutely correct, and if the guy was skiing i'd agree 100%.
Admittedly a bit of a conclusion jump, but i'd take a leap in saying that there wasn't 100% snow coverage otherwise he wouldn't have gone fell running, he'd have gone nordic skiing.
We are individuals with different opinions based upon different experiences.
No doubt this guy had a massive fright that day so his lesson was well and truly learnt.
My point though is that it's pretty pointless judging the guy when we do not have all the details.
a news story can be curtailed any way the writer feels suits his purposes better, if the writer wrote the article in the vein that the running survived nd had the knowledge to build a shelter then i'm no doubt many here would be calling him a hero.
I personally do not take many of the items on that "essential" list for the vast vast majority of hikes i do.
To be honest if i needed to cart around all that gear i probably wouldn't bother.
Other times though i will take many things in those lists plus many more items, my point being that i consider myself a responsible adult that has enough experience to tailor his kit for the intended task.
No doubt that guy would have said that a few weeks ago, and for sure doo doo does hit the fan at times, you can't cover for every scenario and travel light though, and there are situations where travelling heavy is more a hindrance than a help.
It is suggested earlier that the "ten" is a US invention and may not therefore be applicable to the UK.
Here is what the Mountaineering Council of Scotland has to say
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/winter-essential-information.asp
and the minimum equipment list here is more comprehensive than the "ten".
Also take special note of this
Here is what the Mountaineering Council of Scotland has to say
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/winter-essential-information.asp
and the minimum equipment list here is more comprehensive than the "ten".
Also take special note of this
It is important to remember that mountaineers do not have a right to be rescued and that their safety is not ultimately guaranteed by the emergency services. A late return, a benightment or a forced bivouac are all situations for which mountaineers should be prepared, and which do not necessarily justify alerting the voluntary mountain rescue services. Mountaineers should be independent, self-reliant and able to look after themselves.
Going up a snow capped hill with snow and high wind forecast defines you as a winter mountaineer IMO, not just a "hill walker"
I don't know how much information a MRT pager gives you but our HM Coastguard ones simply alert you to a 'shout' its only when you arrive at the station that you get more details, obviously as the incident develops more info will become available. The point that I am making is that when the pager goes of we don't know if its a hoax or a tsumani coming so the initial response is the same!
While I wouldn't wish to critisise individuals, I think that it is inapropriate for people to comment on specific rescues/incidents particularly when a life has been lost as in the sad case of the Soldier.
HMCG would never discourage people from calling 999, it is better to be called out for a thousand false alarms/simple rescues than take part in one body recovery task.
Glyn.
While I wouldn't wish to critisise individuals, I think that it is inapropriate for people to comment on specific rescues/incidents particularly when a life has been lost as in the sad case of the Soldier.
HMCG would never discourage people from calling 999, it is better to be called out for a thousand false alarms/simple rescues than take part in one body recovery task.
Glyn.
Very good link and very good point.
It's often said in my part of the world that there is no such thing as winter hillwalking in Scotland, because if the weather changes, it becomes mountaineering.
Most deaths in the hills are due to slips and falls, so good boots, crampons/ice axe, and the skill to use them, are of prime necessity.
Exposure and hypothermia is less common, but does occur, so clothing and bivvy gear is also important.
I am sometimes suprised by how many rescues are triggered by mobile phones. This one was on Ben Ledi which is near to an A road and a big town, and has a clear radio path so no surprise there. But I have been completely unable to get a signal more often than not, for example:
most of the Cairngorms
Loch Etive
Loch Laidon and Rannoch Moor
Most of Knoydart
Kirkton Glen above Balqhuidder
Much of Glen Affric
Sat phones are expensive.
To date EPIRBS seem to have been mostly used for marine purposes, but I think this is changing.
Well expensive is relative, they start at £415 on google shopping, it's a form of life insurance and plenty of car insurance quote are more than that.
The EPIRBS mostly for Marine purposes surprises me, not because I think you are mistaken about this in the UK but because the only reason I know about them is from Ray Mear's extreme survival where he is going into the outback and basically says you would be nuts not to have one with you. That's a pretty old programme. And both these items are light enough for even a fell runner to carry.
It's not just the cost of the phone. I looked into buying one as I go to remote parts of the world for my holidays (Kalahari, Canada, Borneo jungle). Once you've bought the handset (approx £600 at the time for an Iridium model) you then have to either sign up to a contract that was something like £150 a month... or buy a top-up card which was something like £600 for a 30 minute card that expired 6 months from the purchase date.. for me that's too expensive for something that 'hopefully' will never be used.
I do own an EPIRB for those foreign trips, however (unless it's changed recently) EPIRBS are illegal for land based use in the UK (though you can carry one in an aircraft in case it crashes on land)
I have been told that because of the way an EPIRB callout is managed (the satellite monitors call the authority the individual EPIRB is registered with - who then try and make contact with the phone numbers that you register on your application - and only when they've verified that you are in the location that the emergency signal is coming from will they initiate a rescue) it could be several hours before a rescue attempt gets underway
PDA1, I'm in full agreement with cbr6fs; some of that list just isn't going to happen.
Hillwalkers don't carry knives usually, certainly not beyond a SA or Leatherman. They don't carry firelighting kit, nor more food that they'll use for lunch and munchies. Starvation isn't likely to be an issue, a quick energy boost is a distinct possibility. Again, stoves? nah, not for few hours hillwalk.
Maybe if the intent is to dawdle and brew up, but HWMBLT or Son1 and his mates climbing the Cobbler ?.........no.
Flask of coffee maybe.
As for the rest, they dress for the season and the weather and strip off or put on layers as they need. Waterproofs and decent footwear are standard and so are basic first aid kits; bivvy bags and crampons, aren't. Crampons at this time of year aren't a necessity for every hill, it's a balmy Winter this year, most of the hills folks walk are free of snow. The 'gorm might not be, and it's so cloudy that I can't see the Lomonds just now, so not sure there.
It's horses for courses, be pro-active in choices, think before you leap and all that.........and I'm among the first to decry those who don't prepare for the changeability of our weather and the exposed areas.
Truthfully I reckon Doc's comment about thinking about going up in the first place and knowing when to think again, is spot on.
Re- the 3ltrs of water. HWMBLT is past retirement age, he's a lean, wiry, 5'8" fellow who has climbed all his days. He has never taken more than a ltr or so up the hill with him. I reckon the more you carry the more you need to carry, iimmc.
People need to find a balance, but weight on your back is a killer too. It's exhausting, it affects your balance, it risks greater injury, it damages joints and it's depressing.
Yeah, balance, each to their own and travel safely
cheers,
Toddy
Hillwalkers don't carry knives usually, certainly not beyond a SA or Leatherman. They don't carry firelighting kit, nor more food that they'll use for lunch and munchies. Starvation isn't likely to be an issue, a quick energy boost is a distinct possibility. Again, stoves? nah, not for few hours hillwalk.
Maybe if the intent is to dawdle and brew up, but HWMBLT or Son1 and his mates climbing the Cobbler ?.........no.
Flask of coffee maybe.
As for the rest, they dress for the season and the weather and strip off or put on layers as they need. Waterproofs and decent footwear are standard and so are basic first aid kits; bivvy bags and crampons, aren't. Crampons at this time of year aren't a necessity for every hill, it's a balmy Winter this year, most of the hills folks walk are free of snow. The 'gorm might not be, and it's so cloudy that I can't see the Lomonds just now, so not sure there.
It's horses for courses, be pro-active in choices, think before you leap and all that.........and I'm among the first to decry those who don't prepare for the changeability of our weather and the exposed areas.
Truthfully I reckon Doc's comment about thinking about going up in the first place and knowing when to think again, is spot on.
Re- the 3ltrs of water. HWMBLT is past retirement age, he's a lean, wiry, 5'8" fellow who has climbed all his days. He has never taken more than a ltr or so up the hill with him. I reckon the more you carry the more you need to carry, iimmc.
People need to find a balance, but weight on your back is a killer too. It's exhausting, it affects your balance, it risks greater injury, it damages joints and it's depressing.
Yeah, balance, each to their own and travel safely
cheers,
Toddy
When I was leading expeds around the world an EPIRB was part of our basic kit. The registered phone numbers were the Ops room in London and a whole big organisation of multiple expeds was covered by that ops room.
Rescues were organised fast!
On the other hand some EPIRBs set themselves off by accident so they are not 100% reliable....
We also had Sat phones on some expeds - expensive but pretty useful.
On one exped we were using 2 way radios with solar chargers - they let us down just when we needed them most ...when we had a genuine emergency!
Back up, low power, systems worked and the cas was evacuated OK in the end but I had a pretty tense couple of days ...
In the UK I have used CBs to good effect, including organising the evacuation of a heat casualty from a challenge hike in Wales (we do get a bit of sun here every decade or so).
Mobiles have very patchy coverage in most realy remote areas - I have no signal in my village at all for Vodaphone (though there is intermittant signal for o2) but this is generally the best coverage network for the area, as far as I can work out.
In the days I did most of my adventurous hill/mountain walking there was nothing better available than a whistle.
If you messed up you relied on your kit and your skills - and soon learned to turn back if things got beyond you.
The alternative was that you did not learn and ended up a statistic!
Rescues were organised fast!
On the other hand some EPIRBs set themselves off by accident so they are not 100% reliable....
We also had Sat phones on some expeds - expensive but pretty useful.
On one exped we were using 2 way radios with solar chargers - they let us down just when we needed them most ...when we had a genuine emergency!
Back up, low power, systems worked and the cas was evacuated OK in the end but I had a pretty tense couple of days ...
In the UK I have used CBs to good effect, including organising the evacuation of a heat casualty from a challenge hike in Wales (we do get a bit of sun here every decade or so).
Mobiles have very patchy coverage in most realy remote areas - I have no signal in my village at all for Vodaphone (though there is intermittant signal for o2) but this is generally the best coverage network for the area, as far as I can work out.
In the days I did most of my adventurous hill/mountain walking there was nothing better available than a whistle.
If you messed up you relied on your kit and your skills - and soon learned to turn back if things got beyond you.
The alternative was that you did not learn and ended up a statistic!
Matthew.Passmore
Settler
The fact that he needed rescue - without being injured or being ill - says that he did something wrong in the matter of being prepared for the forcast conditions.
Makes him an ***** in my book
In the few days that I ever did any running in the hills a map, compass, whistle, FAK, spare top and waterproofs, alongside some spare food and drink in a small pack were my basic kit.
And I always tried to get a forcast for the day in as much detail as possible - binning the trip if it looked too iffy!
And that was just in summer!
When hill walking I always carried enough kit to endure an enforced night out if it came to it - the weight was just accepted and treated as good training for more major trips and backpacking outings.
As a wise (ish) man once said "Travel light - freeze at night!"
Can't agree more.
If there was enough snow for a snow hole then he must have noticed the weather on the way up and decided that he would carry on despite having no gear.
@Toddy - Obviously if there is no snow on the hill you don't take crampons and an ice axe. If there is, and you don't have them, you don't go. I don't have full pon Alpine gear, so I don't go off trail or above tree line in the winter. I do wear either minispikes for grip on icy trails, or snowshoes in fresh snow.
My "knife" is a 41 gram mini multi tool - you don't need a Rambo special. I've never had to use it so far, but it is a v. useful compliment to the (small) FAK. I would miss it if I didn't have it it weighs almost nothing and takes up no space in the pack, so why not - like seatbelts IMO. My "bivi" is a mylar space blanket - double size bag type, weighs just under 100 grams. Again, no weight, no space, but if someone goes down with an ankle injury on a cold day, it could save a life, only cost $4, one of the most effective items of safety equipment ever. The Scots invented the admirable "Bothy Bag" to serve a similar purpose.
Extra food (even just mars Bars) are not to stave of starvation, but to ward off hypothermia. After insulation and wind/rain protection, food is vital to preventing hypothermia. Ironically, hydration is also vital in avoiding hypothermia. Which brings us to hydration. I am also of pensionable age and believe you me, climbing is exercise, My day hikes typically start with a 1000 metre climb from trailhead to ridge line in 5 or 6 kilometres. Read any excesize manual and it will tell you, 1/2 litre in the hour before start, and 1 litre per hour while exercizing. It usually takes me three hours plus to get to the summit (1000 ft, 1 mile per hour, which is about all I can manage these days) . Summer days here are usually over 80 deg f. At the beginning of this summer, I was taking a 2 litre platypus hydration bladder in my pack and was running out of water by the time I reached the summit/ridgeline. I added a 1 litre bottle and I find that it is exhausted before I get back to the trailhead, and I need to drain another litre back at the car. That's for a typical 10 mile, 5000 ft elevation gain day (much less mileage in the winter) . YMMV (your mileage may vary) , but 1 litre for several hours of vigourous exercise seems a bit small to me.
1.4 kilos for the complete pack at very little cost seems tiny as a contingency against a disaster (either to you or someone you come across in a distressed situation on the hill.)
My "knife" is a 41 gram mini multi tool - you don't need a Rambo special. I've never had to use it so far, but it is a v. useful compliment to the (small) FAK. I would miss it if I didn't have it it weighs almost nothing and takes up no space in the pack, so why not - like seatbelts IMO. My "bivi" is a mylar space blanket - double size bag type, weighs just under 100 grams. Again, no weight, no space, but if someone goes down with an ankle injury on a cold day, it could save a life, only cost $4, one of the most effective items of safety equipment ever. The Scots invented the admirable "Bothy Bag" to serve a similar purpose.
Extra food (even just mars Bars) are not to stave of starvation, but to ward off hypothermia. After insulation and wind/rain protection, food is vital to preventing hypothermia. Ironically, hydration is also vital in avoiding hypothermia. Which brings us to hydration. I am also of pensionable age and believe you me, climbing is exercise, My day hikes typically start with a 1000 metre climb from trailhead to ridge line in 5 or 6 kilometres. Read any excesize manual and it will tell you, 1/2 litre in the hour before start, and 1 litre per hour while exercizing. It usually takes me three hours plus to get to the summit (1000 ft, 1 mile per hour, which is about all I can manage these days) . Summer days here are usually over 80 deg f. At the beginning of this summer, I was taking a 2 litre platypus hydration bladder in my pack and was running out of water by the time I reached the summit/ridgeline. I added a 1 litre bottle and I find that it is exhausted before I get back to the trailhead, and I need to drain another litre back at the car. That's for a typical 10 mile, 5000 ft elevation gain day (much less mileage in the winter) . YMMV (your mileage may vary) , but 1 litre for several hours of vigourous exercise seems a bit small to me.
1.4 kilos for the complete pack at very little cost seems tiny as a contingency against a disaster (either to you or someone you come across in a distressed situation on the hill.)
it is also applicable for most european countrys on land or at sea, only the uk has a truely free rescue servive (lifeboats and mountain rescue).
even the big rescues, involving large commercial shipping has a price tag attatched to it afterwards and yes you do pay for it. dead or alive, dead they bill your lawyer to take it off your last will and testamonts or any insurenece monies due.
i have had the great pleasure of doing BASIC alpine climbing on the Mont Blonc twice to the top and several other gentle climbs/walks in the area, on all six occasions we hired a guide , which when split 6 ways is well worth the money, in 1991 the last time we went, were paying £30 each (£180) for a highly trained guide that was also a local , that was also a gear organiser and was also a owner of a great b and b and many other hats of trade, we also had to take out an insurenece policy before we left, a bit like a public liability one and it had to cover full expences of rescue and repatriation to the uk , i think in those days it was £5m each, which ant alot as the frence when dealing with a mountain rescue realy do pull out all the stops,
i saw once a rescue kick off, for a team of four yanks caught out climbing when they had a fall. the authorities sent out two helios and four teams of mountian rescue heros, but what amazed us was they sent the four teams out in different directions to maximise the routes and speed at which they can go to get to the the yanks, our guide also mentioned that if we were up there at the time and he had had a raido call he would have set us up somewhere safe and shot off to the yanks , being closest to help them out.
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The mylar blankets are brilliant and at 2 for £1 dirt cheap too
I have packed them into every one's first aid kit
Someone did a review of mylar 'survival' tents in the same mode (again £1) not so long ago.
Not suitable for multi use, but they weight virtually nothing and are potentially very useful. Not an added burden, iimmc.
That's the rub....when does the 'just in case', become too much though?
cheers,
Toddy
and at 2 for £1 dirt cheap too I have packed them into every one's first aid kit
Someone did a review of mylar 'survival' tents in the same mode (again £1) not so long ago.
Not suitable for multi use, but they weight virtually nothing and are potentially very useful. Not an added burden, iimmc.
That's the rub....when does the 'just in case', become too much though?
cheers,
Toddy
This is proving to be quite interesting reading. I wasn't aware that rescue in foreign climbs came with a bill. Guess I've got use to the great service offered by mrt, rnli and cave rescue (let's not forget them too). Think I'm going to double check my travel insurance policy to see what I'm covered for. Especially as I'm off skiing soon and canoe expedition in Canada later on in the year. Is there specific policies that can be taken out to cover this?
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